Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

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Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by Dr Dengar on Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:29 am

[title]Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics.[/title]

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I simply love PBP figures, and especially the "early PBP" figures, which are often referred to as  “Poch”. There is never a dull moment when collecting and researching Poch figures. One of the reasons is that these figures are composed from parts which were sourced from factories in the Far East that were producing the Kenner figures. The unpainted parts were imported to Spain, and subsequently painted and welded into complete figures on behalf of PBP. These are the Class I figures.
The unique paint applications, make those figures distinct from their Kenner counterparts. The sonic welding process was not that optimal, sometimes giving rise to factory defects like melt marks (dissipation of sonic energy at the wrong spot causing the plastic to melt locally?) and visible cracks along the two torso halves. Sometimes the figures even appear to be hardly welded at all See the poor Ugnaught below for example.


Badly welded Class I Ugnaught figure.

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Class I figures are often (not always!) mosaics composed from parts which originate from two different steel moulds. This makes sense if you imagine that batches of parts originating from two different factories got mixed up at a certain stage during production in Spain. Sometimes it is obvious that one figure is made from parts originating from two steel moulds (~factories), For instance when a figure has two date stamps or two country designations. See the Dengar example below.

Very often the differences are more subtle especially when it involves mixing up of arms, and legs, which makes it a challenging task to trace back the mould origins.
For the record: Class I figures can also be "pure" non mosaic if all parts originate from one steel mould (~ factory).


Class I Dengar having two COOs, indicating that parts were sourced from two different Far East factories (corresponding with two different steel moulds).

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To make things even more complicated (and interesting), PBP also started to import painted parts from the Far East after a certain time. These parts were then welded together with their own painted parts: Class II figures.
For Class II figures the mosaic nature is often very clear. Take for instance the Poch Luke Farmboy with brown head. In this figure the legs (with typical greenish brown paint), arms (with pale painted hands), and torso (with pale painted neck) are all parts which were imported and then painted by PBP. The brown hair head is imported though, and can also be seen on Kenner figures, including the slight mould defect (not a meltmark!) on the side.
A more subtle example is the blond Luke Farmboy figure below, having one PBP painted leg (greenish brown) and one Kenner leg (light brown).


Early PBP (“Poch”) Luke Farmboys. From left to right Class I, Class II (Kenner head), Class II (PBP right leg, Kenner left leg).

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Also in the Spanish factory, sometimes parts from different figures were accidently mixed up prior to welding, giving rise to a very special mosaic: A factory error.

Early PBP figures. From left to right: Leia Hoth, Factory error, Leia Bespin.

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Probably there is a fourth type of mosaic in which remanining parts from the early PBP era were combined with parts which were plastic injected by PBP in Spain at a later stage (for the no COO figure line).
I have a few in my collection. More about that another time.

You can read more about these fascinating figures in the PBP thread on TIG [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. This thread is planned to be updated here on TXI (as a Library article). If you guys like to read such an article, I will be happily start working on it.

Marco


Last edited by Dr Dengar on Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by cantina_patron on Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:50 am

Very clear summary Marco. I don't currently have many Spanish figures, but I do enjoy learning about them and their maunfacturing history. clapping

I'll look forward to watching this fascinating topic grow. popcorn
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by Chancellor_Peter on Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:52 pm

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Pardon me for asking, but I still don't catch the meaning of the word "Mosaic" that you have used here. scratch
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by Dr Dengar on Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:58 pm

Hi Peter,

A mosaic is a piece of artwork composed of small pieces of coloured stone or glass.
The analogy with Poch figures is that these are pieces of pop art which are often composed of parts from different mould families (produced in different factories).

I hope that clears it up.
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by Chancellor_Peter on Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:09 pm

Thanks Marco,

Pretty complex approach by POCH Sounds like a "Frankenstein Monster" made from different body parts! cyclops alien
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by Commander Clint on Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:26 pm

Marco, Nicely written article. clapping

I only have a couple of Spanish figures, and with the ever rising prices of them at the moment, and how cheap I am, that's probably all I'll have. lol! cheeky
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by Dr Dengar on Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:40 pm

Absolutely Peter. It seems like a complex approach.

This is just guessing but I can imagine that for the 37/41 backs PBP adopted this medium risk approach of importing figure parts from the Far East and having these painted and welded in Spanish factories.
First PBP needed to know if the SW figure line would be a success in Spain before spending more resources on plastic injection in Spain (outsourcing to specialized company, importing heavy steel moulds, etc.).

At first instance PBP even had a lower risk strategy of just importing complete Kenner figures and putting them on the first Imperio 31 backs. A straightforward approach to test the market without having to invest in the production of figures?

Again just thinking out loudly here. Hopefully Javi's upcoming book will shed some more light on this.

Whatever might be the reason for importing and mixing parts from different factories, it makes collecting Poch figures all but boring. Very Happy
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by hellhippie on Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:40 am

great explanation and figures .... I am all but obsessed with these amazing figures whether it be pure poch or hybrid frankenstein variants (along with latter pbp), cant wait to see more

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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by Dr Dengar on Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:22 am

Thanks Bill! Very Happy

What I find interesting is that even 'pure Poch' figures (Class I) can be composed of parts from different factories. Their mosaic / hybrid / Frankenstein Very Happy nature is less pronounced and often unnoticed though when compared to their Class II brothers.
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by ourchickenshack on Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:00 pm

This is a subject I need all the education I can get cheers

I have always had a hard time wrapping my head around Poch and PBP variations and I am very eager to learn Very Happy
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by chris.75 on Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:03 pm

A great thread Marco, very informative study I have a keen interest in Poch and PBP figure variants myself Smile
here is my class II Poch dengar, he has the same double HK coo as pictured in your post.
I think You can also see evidence of mixed up limbs by the difference in paint colour between his arms.


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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by ChristianC on Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:33 am

Fantastic thread Marco! I have a few POCH/PBP but my knowledge about these guys is pretty weak so this thread was a great read for me!

I've never noticed noticed a figure with two COOs and I had no idea these figures were made from parts from different factories. You guys make me feel like a variant dummy....

I have a dumb question. Considering the head on the brown haired Luke is imported, would it be possible to boil and pop a normal Kenner head and fix it to a POCH body? Or would the welding etc give it away?
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by hellhippie on Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:59 pm

Heres a few of my class 2 hybrids......

Ben Kenobi white and grey hair

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I was always under the impression that the white hair Ben is not pure Poch as grey was only released
also if you look at the saber arm the paint on the white haired ben looks pinkish (although I think im reading too far in this one , it looks like Poch pale paint to me as well geek

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Han Solo
pure Poch on the left , smaller (than Kenner) belt buckle pale hands , fat eyebrows
on right thin eyebrows (mixed up category 2)

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Lobot
reddish cyborg paint , Poch , excessive flashing on hands , meltmarks on back
mixed up category 2 pink hands not Poch
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by Dr Dengar on Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:04 pm

Thanks you Chris and Bill for posting a few more examples of Class II figures having PBP painted parts mixed with Kenner parts. cheers cheers
Cool figures! Very Happy

@Christian: good question, I think the difference can not be seen if done carefully.
That's why I like to buy Poch figures from Spanish childhood collections, to be sure these are authentic.
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by hellhippie on Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:48 pm

Dr Dengar wrote:Thanks you Chris and Bill for posting a few more examples of Class II figures having PBP painted parts mixed with Kenner parts. cheers cheers
Cool figures! Very Happy

@Christian: good question, I think the difference can not be seen if done carefully.
That's why I like to buy Poch figures from Spanish childhood collections, to be sure these are authentic.

90% of my poch figures have come from Spanish collections or sellers also . the others or 3 figures have come from people who know their stuff though as well. my first poch figure was a painted pants rebel soldier so that one was a no brainer and it matches completely with my other poch rebel soldier that I bought later that is completely not sonic welded
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by Dr Dengar on Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:53 am

Same here, Bill. I buy Poch figures from just a few trusted sellers/collectors who either know their stuff and/or have access to Spanish childhood collections

Nowadays there are many many socalled Poch figures for sale on ebay which are just regular Kenner figures.
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by Kenneth_B on Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:11 am

Great thread Marco! Let me see if I can contribute with some hybrid/frankenstein Poch figures also. It should be possible at least - also some that we havn't seen yet in this thread. To me it seems like, that some Poch characters are much more frequently mixed up than others. Here I'm in particular thinking about Dengar, Lobot, Leia Hoth, Vader as well as a few others.
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by Dr Dengar on Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:59 am

Great that you chimed in, Kenneth. cheers

I am looking forward to your selection of Poch Class II figures. Very Happy
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by hellhippie on Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:20 am

me too . actually I think ive purchased figure or 2 from you Kenneth ??? correct?? cant wait to see the pictures

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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by chris.75 on Tue Feb 23, 2016 6:54 pm

I bought this Class II Poch vader from kenneth last year Smile

As the sculpt differences with Vader can be quite subtle,
I thought I'd post up a few comparison pics between the class II poch hybrid and its kenner (coo family 2) counterpart.

The Poch vader is always on the right.
Below you can see the numbered differences in sculpt, as well as some Poch characteristics.

1. Different head sculpt, I have this same head sculpt on a coo family 7 Kenner figure.
(although different head sculpts can be found on identical Kenner coos, in particular, hard and soft sculpt heads)
2. Same torso, same length coin slots on chest plate and belt sculpt as Coo family 2
3. Different left hand to its Kenner counterpart (longer thumb, with softer sculpt, shown in pic 2)
4. Different right hand, (longer saber shaft (as found on coo family 7)
5. Different right leg (coo family 7?)

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The back of the figure has some differences too

1. EPM on back of head, proving different head sculpt
2. Difference in shape of arm slot
3. small melt mark on upper back
4. very large melt mark on buttock
5, The same coo as the Kenner figure on the left

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Another interesting, unique sculpt feature to this mould family (coo family 2) is the shape of the feet.
They are more rectangular in shape and slightly wider, than all the other Vader mould families. This feature helps to further illustrate the mixed up nature of Class II Poch figures, in that this figure has the larger rectangular left foot, but has another mould family right foot.
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So you might be led to think that this is a completely different figure, except for the left, coo stamped leg (possible leg swap?).
But the thing is, this mixed up figure would not exist amongst kenner figures either, as all the parts have most likely come from two different factories, an assembly trait which is uniquely Poch.



I hope this is fairly accurate, and I haven't just made a complete tit of myself Smile


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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by Dr Dengar on Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:24 am

Thank you Chris for your analysis on the Darth Vader.  
This is a very tough figure to be able to distinguish parts from different steel moulds, so great job that you took the effort to do so. cheers
The figure looks mixed up for sure.

On a side not: It seems tough to make a distinction between a Class I figure (PBP painted parts only, plastic parts might originate from two different moulds) and Class II figure (PBP and Kenner painted parts combined into one figure) in the case of Darth Vader. Vader has so little paint applied. Do you think that there is an unique Poch paint scheme for Vader?
Maybe a topic for a different thread?
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by Kenneth_B on Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:13 am

Bill, I think, that you're right about that. I just don't recall which figures LOL. Could it have been a chocolate brown legs Poch Han Hoth Or/and a Rebel Soldier?


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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by Kenneth_B on Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:14 am

Marco, Hybrid Poch Snowie will be the first (this weekend if not before).
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by Kenneth_B on Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:27 am

Chris, Nice to see my old mixed up Poch Vader again. Smile As far as I recall, you and I did discuss some of the mixed up parts all ready back then (leg and head at least). The three large HK coo Vaders that I have owned, including your sample, all have the exact same meltmark on the left side of the butt. I never to date saw this imperfection on a Kenner Vader (large HK coo) sample - or on any other Kenner Vaders for that matter.

Aside from the imperfections like the cracks in the necks, meltmarks, poor welding etc I cannot see any unique paint on Poch Vaders in general speaking (not on the chest plate either) leading me to the conclusion, that PBP didn't paint the Kenner Asian vader parts but simply assembled the Vaders with these parts from at least two of the three Kenner HK factories. As for the capes found with poch vaders there is at least one very interesting type, but we can discuss that one on another occasion.

I fully admit though, that I'm no Vader focus collector - neither have I ever considered Vader a very interesting character within the vintage Kenner line of figures. Therefore guys like you Chris, Oscar, Bill McBride and others have much more knowledge about vintage Vader variants generally - including possible small sculpt differences and similar.
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Re: Early PBP (“Poch”) Mosaics

Post by hellhippie on Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:13 am

Kenneth_B wrote:Bill, I think, that you're right about that. I just don't recall which figures LOL. Could it have been a chocolate brown legs Poch Han Hoth Or/and a Rebel Soldier?

yes Kenneth. I think it was a chocolate legs han and a leia hoth with greenish boots , still need a green eyebrows though

I look forward to this thread and learning everyday about what others have , from the experts clapping

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